Who will support the babies? - government vs. personal responsibility

[peacetraveler22]

For some people, having a child seems to be the only purpose in life, regardless of whether you can financially care for this creation, or provide a stable environment in which they can develop as a human being. I began to have an interesting discussion with a reader. He grew upset that I made a comment about a young Native American woman who kept having one baby after the other, when she did not have the financial capacity to care for them.

"Why do you feel sad about it? These kids are healthy (because their mom was young when she gave birth). They have enough food. They can play with each other. Why do you think elderly deserve welfare benefits, but children do not?"

First, the kids are not healthy because the mom was young when she gave birth. They are healthy because fellow citizens. and the government, foot the bill for their survival. We have no choice as to whether we are brought into this world, and I agree no child deserves to suffer because of negligent or poor parents. But my focus was not on the children! It was on the parents, who refuse to use any type of birth control and keep breeding like rabbits - with no stable income, future, or job.

In the reader's view, such behavior is perfectly acceptable. It's the government's responsibility to care for these children, and provide for them if the parents can't. Of course, the government does. In the U.S., and I assume in a lot of other countries. I have no idea how these public assistance programs work in Russia, or other ex-USSR countries. And I want to emphasize that I'm not against public or social benefits, as we never know when we ourselves may have to rely on them in the event we lose our job, become disabled, or face countless other hardships that can suddenly greet us in life. However, abuse of such benefits is unacceptable in my view, and rampant in my country. There is no excuse that you "can't afford" birth control, as there are numerous organizations in the U.S. that provide free contraception. If you're against condoms, birth control pills, or other protective measures for religious reasons - well, I don't know the answer to this dilemma quite honestly.

This attitude that "the government will support me", even when I act in a reckless manner, is a totally foreign mentality to me. Such people - leeches in my view. And, no, I do not believe having a child is the only way to contribute to the greater good of humanity, or future of the world. Accidents and unexpected pregnancies happen, of course. But after six or seven children, it can hardly be an "accident." I believe in personal responsibility, utilization of resources, and not sucking off the government's tit for an entire lifetime, contributing very little to society in return.

What do you think? Is it okay to keep having babies, and expect the government to pay for them? This is a completely irrational view from my perspective, on multiple levels! How do these social programs work in Russia, or the country in which you live?

Comments

[real-marsel.livejournal.com]

I do not understand why people birth children, really. Hormons or somethings else, perhaps.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

People have children for numerous reasons - because they think it's the right thing to do, by accident, or having a child is part of their life goals and dreams. And, of course, procreation is necessary for survival of the human race. :) But just giving birth, or donating sperm - this is not something to be proud of, in my view, if you're otherwise an unfit/negligent parent. Bringing a child into the world is a huge responsibility in my view, yet many people give absolutely no thought to it before having one.

[seadevil001.livejournal.com]

First, process is fun! Second, kids are fun (sometimes) if you teat life properly.

[moskitow.livejournal.com]

I think it doesn't matter what I think about this topic, babies will continue to appear (unless the government decide to start doing preventive sterilisation)
I think that the only way to make it better is education. Once you educate a woman and give her tools to make a good income ..... surprise! women have less kids. Statistically.
Education is such a universal solution to so many problems :)

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

I agree education is the great equalizer, but how can a woman in a country like the USA not know about birth control, condoms, etc.? Even in urban and ghetto areas, there are places where you can get free condoms, at least here in the Washington, DC region. Forced sterilization, or government control over fertility and reproduction - very scary! It's way too complicated of an issue, and requires a level of oversight and control that I doubt any modern government has the resources to regulate, monitor and control. And on what grounds will sterilization occur, who will be subjected to it, etc.?Complex topic. :))

[selfmade.livejournal.com]

Child is a contribution to the society. They are society. So like it or not such people will out-rabbit-multiply you. Probably it will decrease your and their well being, but it's your problem, not their. Well, if grown up child retrospectively doesn't like that reduction of life quality she can do something about it including decision to not multiply like rabbits. It looks like American society as a whole made that decision already. Birth rate is slowly decreasing and is supported mostly by rabbit-like multiplying of some of members of society, while other members decided that they don't want to contribute entirely, simply living the best possible life off society maintained by rabbits.

Basically child is an expensive resource with very much delayed material contribution. You prefer having other members contributions now to increase your current level. They prefer having delayed contributions. If society as a whole shared your view in 40s-50s we wouldn't have baby boom that boosted economy a few decades later. Of course, there's always a balance - now vs later. I think currently we are at the need to boost birth rate a little.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Sadly, children born into such homes often follow the same cycle because we are all products of the environment in which we grew up to some extent, right? There are always exceptions, but I think they are becoming more rare. If a child is born into a household with lazy/negligent parents, who sit on their ass all the time, live off food stamps, welfare, and other social benefits, how is the child supposed to understand the value of work, contribution to society, effort, education, etc.? So, this pokes holes in your thesis that a child is an "expensive resource with very much delayed material contribution." Not all humans grow up to provide a material, or even minor contribution to society, so why do we need so many of them in the world? P.S. - thanks for such a well-written, logical response. :) Your English is excellent!

[kichiro-sora.livejournal.com]

>Basically child is an expensive resource with very much delayed material contribution.

Not kids from welfare families, no. They are grown in welfare/working-the-system style of life since birth. That's all they see, and that's what they'll do when grown up. They'll do what they know to do. They mostly became a users, not contributors. How many successful people, business people, startup people, teachers for cristsake, do you know who came from welfare family?

[olgorius.livejournal.com]

Only mandatory birth control for people like that.
Decision about "to have or not to have" will be taken by special committee after careful consideration of your income, credit history, equity and net worth. :)

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

What if people have religious objections to birth control? The government cannot force it upon them, as it violates freedom of religion. What do we do with these people? :))

[c250.livejournal.com]

I went to Baltimore, there was a large billboard advertising " Child will coast $ 660 per month " When my wife got her dream ,daughter we were 40, she took everything and I was left on the street, judge says you supposed made 90K To what ? Without collage degree ? :) You need to think hundred times have you baby in America is the most unfair court

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

What do you mean most "unfair court" - in the context of child support payments? Most States, including where I am in Virginia, follow a basic formula for support payments. The monthly calculation is based on numerous factors (father's income level, number of children, health insurance costs, etc.). Of course, the mom and dad can enter into some other type of arrangement on their own, memorialize the terms in written form and submit it to the Court. The Judge will then enter it as an Order and make it part of the official record. Judges love such cases. This is what happened in the last child support case I handled. But most couples cannot do this because they can't agree, wish to fight and drag everything out...and the courts are forced to decide their fate and obligations for them. Btw, you can view the VA child support calculator here - :) http://www.vasupportcalc.com/child-support-calculators/shared-support-calculator/

[seadevil001.livejournal.com]

Obviously state is interested in new taxpayers and cannon fodder. So it sponsor new kids for everyone fertile enough.

[kichiro-sora.livejournal.com]

Did you see Shameless? US version. It pretty much shows the way of life of welfare people. Not many of them become taxpayers. Most - just get on welfare. That's the only way they know.

[inescher.livejournal.com]

"Is it okay to keep having babies, and expect the government to pay for them?"
-No. My family is my responsibility as well as my lifestyle, my health, my life environment. I totally agree when government (i.e. all of us though our taxes) temporary helps people with the problems but I'm not agree when this problems became to be a style of the life and government (again, i.e. all of us) should pay for that. As a health organization worker I see how much it would cost to pay this support but I also understand why we have to do that. This is dilemma and nobody knows how to solve it.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

It is definitely a "style of life" for many people. Therein lies the problem, yet the government doesn't have the manpower or resources to monitor all these cases to the extent needed, thus there will continue to be fraud and abuse. My friend works for the Social Security Administration and investigates scams and fraud...there are piles and piles of cases on her desk each time I visit her office. :( There is no easy solution...I don't claim to have the answers. Just raising the topic for discussion. :)

[kichiro-sora.livejournal.com]

I basically agree with everything you said. Breeding like rabbits is irresponsible, and unfair to children in first place. Coming from poor welfare family there's little chance they'll be successful in life...

But if goverment allows it - some people will abuse the system. Nothing we can do about it. Nobody will roll welfare back. So it's not much use to talk about it.

And even if there were no welfare - some people would stop, because right now welfare is their "salary", so the more kids the bigger salary. But some people would still breed like rabbits. For religious or other strange reasons. The kids would be literally hungry, but it would not stop them.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

See my comments above regarding repeating the same cycle, we're basically thinking the same on this topic. It''s very hard to break mentalities and behavior chains in families, or communities in general. It is the same as when a child grows up in a home with domestic or sexual abuse. Unfortunately, many of them repeat the vile abuse they grew accustomed to, or cling to men or women who inflict it on them. Or, when young girls grow up without fathers and have "daddy" issues later in life. These are documented and well-researched psychological truths. So, people like me that grew up in, and continue to be blessed with such a stable environment in life, have much greater odds of becoming successful...yet I still believe people must take ultimate responsibility and map their own course in life. I've never seen the show "Shameless."

[theodorexxx.livejournal.com]

Why do child-frees talk too much?

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

"Child-frees" - we are not allowed to have opinions on this topic?

[maks j-fry (from livejournal.com)]

o man. I think your way of thinking is pretty ancient. Look - all human beings have some basic needs. 1. to live. 2. to eat. 3. to breed (or whatever you call it) 4. and so on. In most modern countries were passed some social laws in order to meet the basic needs of people. for example - a man don't want to make a living then other people share their goods with him preventing him from death from starving. sometimes people just give him some money when he's sitting on the sidewalk, sometimes government gets money from people and shares with this slacker. It is normal because all people decided that everyone has a right to live even if they can't or don't want to earn a living. the exact same thing with the third item. If a woman wants to have children other people have to give her this opportunity even dispite the fact she doesn't have enough money to raise children. because having children is one of her basic needs just like as "to live". or you wanna say if person don't have money to eat he or she doesn't deserve to live?

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

"Needs" in life vary depending on each person. You need very minimal things to survive - food, water, some type of shelter. What is "basic" for one person will be considered luxurious or outlandish to another. "Breeding" - yes, this is necessary for the survival of our species as a whole, yet no one has ever died from lack of sex, or not having a child. Plenty of people are still having babies, though rates are declining in most places.

I feel no moral or human obligation to support the lazy, or people who contribute absolutely nothing to society. I'm a very charitable person, willing to help those in need - but people must be conditioned and motivated to help themselves in return. Children deserve to eat, and my post is not about them. It is about adult behavior and choices in life. If you "can't" earn a living due to disability, lack of jobs in your country, or other reasons, I have no problem supporting such people through social benefits. But if you simply "won't" work when you have the capacity to do so, and opportunities are available, I feel no obligation to provide any type of assistance. Survival of the fittest. :) Call it callous, heartless, whatever...this is my belief, and I don't consider this mentality to be an ancient one. :))

[qi-tronic.livejournal.com]

The government should take measures that smart and educated parents have more babies.

The only decent goal gor a government in my view is to make infrastructure better and people better.

The government should be not a nurse but a gardener.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

"The government should be not a nurse but a gardener..." What a poetic expression. :) I agree.

[elena-88888.livejournal.com]

To my opinion this works bad both in Russia and in Belarus.
And I think that a future mom should think twice how to live with her child after giving birth... She should rely on herself... Government is a fiction created specially for those who are in the top Government is they. And it will pay for their children but not for other even in the middle...

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Based on what other's wrote, it doesn't seem like social benefits in Russia will be enough to survive if you are unemployed with a child. Not sure about Belarus. Mothers still bear most of the weight with child duties, even in America. So they should think hard about the choice, and the responsibilities that can with it. But we're assuming most people are mature, which isn't the case. :))

[kremlin-curant.livejournal.com]

Actually to relay for government help for growing babies is much better than relaying for the same one when you get old.
Or even relaying on your children going to feed you when you can't or don't want to work.
I met a lot of such kind of people, especially from the former Soviet Union.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Personally, I've had a 401k since my early 20's and have been saving money for my own retirement. I think this is the safest option, because who knows how the social security and pension system will work by the time I retire, and whether it will be enough to survive. After all these years of working hard, I hope to live well and relax in old age. :)

[metaller.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you, Shannon.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Glad to know I'm not alone with these thoughts...sometimes I wonder. :)

[rollson.livejournal.com]

We need to ban children in airplanes!
Children should start working at age of 5!
Women not allowed to have more than 2 children in 10 years period!
Parents should be allowed to sell extra children to Scandinavia! ($3500 for boys and $999 for girls)
And need to explain people- sex couses children birth!

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

You are hardcore! :)) Children should not be banned from airplanes. They deserve to have adventures also. :)

[anna-sollanna.livejournal.com]

Completely agree with you!!
> If you're against condoms, birth control pills, or other protective measures for religious reasons
if you are against all these things - just don't have sex ;)
What surprises me is that it is necessary to gather lots of documents (and to have some income as well) to become foster parents, but nothing of the above mentioned is required at all to became a "normal" parent. And because of this such people as you mentioned in your post do exist. Something definitely should be done to improve the situation, but what? It's against human rights to sterilize people so we can't technically stop their reproduction. Stop giving them money - their children will suffer. Take children from them (if they can't provide the necessary level of comfort to their children) - they will conceive more children. This is a question to which I don't have a definite answer. It looks like the only way is to "persuade" people that have lots of children only to get money from government is something very shameful but I am not sure whether this will work...
> Such people - leeches in my view.
Bull's eye! I call such people just "parasite". Btw what do you think about a theory that only people who pay taxes should have a right to vote?

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

"it is necessary to gather lots of documents (and to have some income as well) to become foster parents, but nothing of the above mentioned is required at all to became a "normal" parent..." Very good point! Many people have suggested forced sterilization, but I don't view this as a viable option, or even a moral one for many reasons. Plus, there are way too many complications about who should be subjected to the procedure, how will we monitor, after how many children should it sterilization be mandated, etc.? It requires too many resources to monitor, implement and do all this and most governments are already over-burdened and inefficient.

I think all people should have the right to vote. In the U.S., if you make below a certain amount of money, you don't need to pay taxes, but are still working. And stay at home moms, for instance, who don't work will have no reason to pay taxes. They should not be prohibited from voting. :)

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