Turks vs. Russians - what is going on?!?

[peacetraveler22]

Damn, what wildness in the world now! I awoke to news of the military incident with the Russian jet. Now, a news flash on RT that the pilots were shot dead in the air while trying to parachute. Who should we believe? Russia's version of the incident varies wildly from that of the Turks and the U.S., who claim 10 warnings were given before the jet was taken down. Now, there will undoubtedly be bans on yet another prime tourist destination for Russians. It is reported that there are already demands to evacuate tourists from Turkey and cancel the visa-free regime until Turkish officials issue an apology. Who and what should we believe? What is going on?? Nothing is clear, just like this blurry photo, where I photobombed a shot with a random Russian man in some remote town last winter. I don't even remember the name of the city, but when I look at this photo, I always smile. And we can all use some laughter and a brief moment of humor on this day.

I don't even know what to say, or how to analyze this situation, because I'm no expert in foreign or military affairs. How will Putin and NATO react? Who do you believe? Today the French flags are hanging in Washington, DC because Francois Hollande is visiting Obama. Now is a rare chance for you to express your opinions about the political and military situation in this blog. I know you are all experts! :) I will read all your comments, but don't have time to answer everyone...

Comments

[grimbik.livejournal.com]

Putin doesn't punish his population but providing money for the enemy is simply a bad idea. Better buy stuff and go on vacation in coutries whic aren't in conflict with Russia.

[moebiuscat.livejournal.com]

Well, he kinda started it by bombing Turkish brigades in Syria... So he made Turkey an enemy. Now he will punish his people: Egypt is closed now, Turkey will be too.

[grimbik.livejournal.com]

And what are Turks doing in another country ? Why arwe they supporting the terrorists ?

If Russian tourists leave Turkey it will be a punition for the Turks fist. Russians will find another place to spend their money.

[moebiuscat.livejournal.com]

Duh... They are living there since 11th century :-) Learn some history...

[grimbik.livejournal.com]

Just like Russians living in Donbass and other regions of 404 are there since many centuries. But since this right is denied to them by Ukraine and ANTO, there is no reason for Russia to act differently. All those against Assad are targets living there or not.

[moebiuscat.livejournal.com]

Nice illustration of Russian mentality. Well, it's your right to think so, but then don't complain that if you are bombing Turkish villages in Syria, Turks will shoot down your planes when given half a reason :-)

And don't pretend you are fighting against ISIS, because those Turkmen are also against ISIS, they would be your allies and not enemies, especially primary enemies. You are solely in this war to support Asad, which puts most of Arab world and all western world against you.

[grimbik.livejournal.com]

There is only one legitimate government in Syria - the Assad one. ISIS or not ISIS, majority of those fighting against Assad are also terrorists. Turkey is fighting against Kurds who are opposing ISIS like Assad. Turkey is clearly on the side of ISIS.

[moebiuscat.livejournal.com]

There are at least 4 major sides in this war. All of them, including Asad can qualify as terrorist. Being against Asad doesn't mean someone is on the side of ISIS. NATO is agains Asad and against ISIS. Kurds are against both. Turnmen as well. Hezbulla and An-Nursa are against ISIS while being just as bad terrorist organizations. It's funny you call a "legitimate government" something that was never freely elected and has a military dictatorship for generations. There are no "good guys" there.

[grimbik.livejournal.com]

Assad was freely elected not long ago. There is just two sides in this war. Those fighting for order and those fighting for chaos. Assad, Kurds, Russia, Iran are on the side of order. All others support chaos. NATO cannot be against ISIS since their member Turkey supports ISIS while US are big buddies with Saudis - other sponsors of ISIS.

[moebiuscat.livejournal.com]

freely elected, right, just like Putin...

[grimbik.livejournal.com]

Problems with that ? Putin enjoys a large support in Russia, it's a fact. Elections in Russia are as free like in US where two parties play football for public since a century.

[moebiuscat.livejournal.com]

Democracy is not just elections. Elections are meaningless, and it's not a democracy, unless you have a working and independent judiciary system, free and state-independent press, open opposition that is not persecuted and killed, freedom of speech, no political prisoners and no people arrested and sentenced to years of jail time just for coming to a political protest.

Syria had a "state of emergency" army rule since the 1960-s, which was only "lifted" in 2011 because of the popular uprising demanded it. Then he just started indiscriminately bombing city of Homs, where opposition was. Asad has succeeded his father in uninterrupted rule of the country for decades. No true opposition is allowed to exist (just like in Russia). Army had all the power all this time. It's a classic military dictatorship, if ever there is one.

The notion that country that has ruled for decades by father and then son is democratic is laughable, even without knowing anything else. But of course you don't see it as a problem, because Putin ruling the Russia for at lest 16 years seems OK to most Russians...

You have to understand what freedom is, actually want it, and value freedom and human life, in order to understand what democracy is. That's why there will be no democracy in the foreseeable future in the middle east (with exception of Israel) and in Russia as well. People are just not ready. The don't understand or want freedom and don't value human life at all...

[grimbik.livejournal.com]

Freedom ? Where did you seen freedom ? Maybe in USA where police shot people because of their skin color ? Or in Europe where all those opposing the liberal policies are quickly branded as nazis or things like that ? And where this free press does exists ? I don't know about popular mass media which aren't owned by members of economical-political elite and which aren't used to broadcast their opinions. The whole myth about freedom is simply a lie invented in order to better control the masses.

[moebiuscat.livejournal.com]

There is no heaven on earth. But there are places where freedom and human rights are generally respected and places where they aren't. You wouldn't understand...

[grimbik.livejournal.com]

Like in Gitmo or Ferguson ? Cool story.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

What about Ferguson? Have you been there? I have. And how do you expect a police officer to act when a known thug, who has just robbed a store and showed signs of aggression doesn't listen to his calls to stop. You realize America is the most heavily armed civilian population in the world? So, police officers must also protect their own lives. If you don't want to be shot by a police officer, obey his commands. It's very simple.

[grimbik.livejournal.com]

Is it a reason to better arm the police than the armies of some countries ? Regarding the police reaction you should ast the US Government who supported the thugs during and after Maidan when they killed Berkut servicemen. According to you government killing policemen and desobeying the law is a perfectly normal form of protest. So according to exactly the same standards, police officers shooting at people is a crime against democracy.