Confused, Naive American - Explain Chechen Wedding Scandal!

[peacetraveler22]

We all recognize that there are eccentric and deranged people in all parts of the globe, engaged in questionable behavior which we'll never understand or condone. I once thought of visiting Grozny, so perhaps some of you would even place me in one, or both, of these categories. Remember a few years ago, I wrote this post, asking readers whether it's safe for an American woman to travel to Chechnya? Some of my friends in the Russian blogosphere have been there, and even personally met Kadyrov and told me it was safe. All of them - MEN. You can call me a naive or misinformed American, but I can't understand yesterday's events.

I read the scandalous news that Kadyrov granted special permission for an old Police Chief to marry a 17 year old bride! I will not place a photo of the sad, distraught young woman in my blog to further sensationalize her image. On her wedding day, her eyes completely devoid of joy, as if going to a funeral or gas chamber. You've already seen her expressions, her white dress, and the bejeweled head covering, all draped around the delicate frame of a young woman who likely had no say in the events of that day, or in picking her groom. What a sad existence, I'm sorry I can't imagine it, or respect any region where such actions are considered acceptable, and personally authorized by the leader!! I read a lot of stories and comments about this topic today, and I'm particularly disgusted by the post written by Ilya Varlamov, LJ's top Russian blogger, where he can't understand all the fuss or controversy over the wedding.  How can a modern, intelligent man like him not question this event, particularly when he has a young daughter of his own?

Here in the U.S., we have various religious sects engaged in polygamy, many marrying very young brides. The distinction is that our leaders don't advocate or approve of such behavior, nor does most of American society. On some other news sites, I read comments by a few Chechen females stating that the bride's facial expression was normal, that Muslim women don't show overt expression, even during a wedding. According to them, such action would be considered immodest in strict Muslim families.

What do you think of this scandal? Please help me understand "real" Chechen culture and mentality better, not what well-known bloggers show on their hand held tours, organized by Chechen officials. Yes, I know about the Chechen wars and that it's a Muslim region in the North Caucasus, yet it's still part of Russia. I'm especially interested to hear from any female readers I might have living in this area. Help me restore my faith in this region..

Comments

[justadreamer.livejournal.com]

Просто республика пока ещё в позапрошлом веке.

Россия 1862 год


Чечня 2015 год

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

The most popular meme from this situation. :(

[maryasha-b.livejournal.com]

Grozny.TV stick to their version of the story, but just watch the girl preparing for the wedding...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiit58pU4Hk

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

I saw it, and most surprising is Kadyrov's outfit on the dance floor. :) And people claim Westerners are poorly and sloppily dressed? :)

[creaze.livejournal.com]

> The distinction is that our leaders don't advocate or approve of such behavior

Now, this is a BIG deal!

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Yes, to me the special approval by Kadyrov (and silence by Putin on the situation) were the main focus of the post, but probably I didn't express my inquiry very well.

[mb-b.livejournal.com]

I can't remember who it was (Jared Diamond, I think) who noted that it's easy to make certain conclusions about a species's reproductive strategy/sexual habits just by observing the difference in size between males and females. The males of gorilla, for instance, are much bigger than females, so they have a harem system (the same, of course, works for many other, non-primate, species, the best known one is probably the fur seals). Gibbons' males and females, on the other hand, are exactly the same size: They have true monogamy. Chimpanzees are also about the same size but they are promiscuous. And we humans fit in between: Evolutionally (genetically) we are in the middle of a journey from one end of the spectrum to the other, hence all these troubles. Just wait another 10 million years...
...Oops, it probably won't work: We have just about stopped the natural selection and are about to exterminate ourselves anyway.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Unique comment and analysis. :)

[ilay-original.livejournal.com]

Mariage age in Russia is 18.
Minors may marry only under permission of social guardianship agency.
Poligamt is forbidden in Russia by the federal law.

Taking this case - they at least made everything look legal.
The police officer officially divorced before marrying this girl and her custodians officially permitted the marriage.

Now speaking of my personal attitude in this regard:
I don't see anything unethical or anything terrible in polygamy and/or early marriage and/or age difference.

Provided always there is no compulsion, no public offense and it does match the tradition and cultural code of the participants.

A friend of mine once taught me with a US proverb: ' old enough to bleed - old enough to breed', he said about a similar scenario.
(well he was from Texas so it explains quite much imo ;)))

What does personally offend me in such cases in muslim republics of Russia - is their disregard to the law.
It all might look legal enough for the general public, but it's still a fraud.

My background does not let me conform a sham deal - and this is a sham par excellance.

So my position is simple: marriage laws should become the competence and responsibilities of the states, not the federal government.

If Chechnya wants some adats (traditional law) or Shariah law to become applicable - such should become incorporated on their level.
And federal laws should be ammended respectively in order to grant the republics necessary freedom to implement such rules.

All above stated imho.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

"Old enough to bleed - old enough to breed..." disgusting phrase! Even for a Texan!

[cyber-gen.livejournal.com]

Marriage in Russia (not only in Chechen Republic) is not only an act of love or so on... In most cases it's a contract between two families. Why? Becouse of very low life level of course. No money - no love and no freedom, like in all capitalist states in the world.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Sad.

[buddhistmind.livejournal.com]

It's OK there, in Chechnya, so don't worry, Shannon. No , the girl isn't distraught etc. She is confused and angry about all the hype that ollowed the marriage.

By the way, in Russia it is legal to marry from the age of 14 years (not in all regions though, and you have to have solid reasons).

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

In the U.S., you can marry as young as 16, but only with parental consent. Okay, perhaps I'm close-minded to believe that a young girl in this situation can actually be happy or have a good, decent life, full of rich experiences and personal growth.

[ms-sh.livejournal.com]

as for me Chechnya is another world, I mean they don't have any relation to Russian, except some political circumstances.
that's why they live under their own law, which is different from Russian

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Yes, another world, but still part of the Russian Federation.

[nagolny.livejournal.com]

Прежде чем судить, лучше бы ознакомиться с традициями, историей.
"Выражение лица" невесты ни о чём не говорит. На Кавказе, действительно, невеста на свадьбе должна вести себя подчёркнуто скромно, или даже выражать скорбь. Между прочим, в традиционной РУССКОЙ свадьбе присутствует обряд оплакивания невесты. Как и во многих других традициях у других народов.

Закон, насколько я знаю, не нарушен.

А факты злоупотребления - надо доказывать, зачем зря поднимать шум?

[lmaria.livejournal.com]

Все уже много раз писали, посмотрите видео чеченских свадеб, там есть скромность, да, но и радость, а тут у человека явное горе. И потом, вся шумиха началась с того, что родственники девушки попросили о помощи, иначе как бы об этом вообще узнали журналисты?

Ей две недели назад исполнилось 17. Не знаю, каким приличным словом это можно назвать.

[k-netalie.livejournal.com]

the are traditions, religious and cultural. there is a law which allows this marriage. there is also age gap. maybe i'm naive too because the only question for me in this story is her good will. somehow i don't believe it was her choise, i don't believe she loves him. she's just 17. i feel so sorry for her.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Me too, very sorry for this girl and others in her situation.

[sstrista.livejournal.com]

Не стоит закатывать истерику по этому поводу, это старые древние обычаи, коих в культурах полно. Нет ничего противоестественного в этом, с древних времен девушку готовят, с детства, что ее выберет мужчина. Светские нормы тут совсем не причем, это на уровне религии. Думаю дагестанцы так же отреагировали бы, с негодованием, о новости женитьбы какого нибудь президента мужчину на мужчине :)

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Adults should be free to choose whom they love - even if it is a person of the same sex. It doesn't mean we have to agree, or accept their choices. But a child isn't mature or emotionally well-developed to make such decisions. This is the main issue, and of course determining at what age a child should be able to make such choices about marriage, sex, etc. is difficult because each human develops at his or her own pace in life. You think it's possible this young girl could really love and desire a man so old?

[buddhistmind.livejournal.com]

what really pisses me off is Arabs. Just have a glance at what's happening in Saudi Arabia right now:

"Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdulaziz Al al-Sheikh, the kingdom’s top religious authority in the ultra-conservative Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam, has ruled it’s acceptable for men to marry girls so young the West would deem it nothing short of pedophilia and rape.

Grand Mufti Abdulzaiz’s more recent ruling on marrying young girls comes following a similar ruling in 2011 by Dr. Salih bin Fawzan, a prominent cleric and member of the Saudi’s highest religious council, who issued a fatwa, or religious edict, that there is no minimum age to marry girls, “even if they are in the cradle.”

“The grand point of the Saudi fatwa... is that there is no age limit whatsoever,” Middle East expert Raymond Ibrahim writes in Middle East Forum. “The only question open to consideration is whether the girl is physically capable of handling her ‘husband.’”

“The lives of countless young girls are devastated because of this teaching,” Ibrahim said.

He cited the case of an 8-year-old girl who died on her “wedding” night when her “husband” raped her. He also referred to a 10-year-old girl who hid from her 80-year-old “husband.”

******www.wnd.com/2015/01/saudi-religious-leader-oks-rape-of-children/#EmypsBf5JIiAsTdC.99

"In Saudi Arabia, rape cases usually target both the defendant and the victim,[3] and in some cases, the victim can be sentenced to even harsher punishment than the assailant.[2]
Human Rights Watch has investigated the situation, and their report concludes that the rape victim is punished when they speak out against the crime. In one case, the victim's sentence was doubled for speaking out; the court also harassed the victim's lawyer, going so far as to confiscate his professional license.[4]"


I hate Arabs. They are an embodiment of evil. And Chechens are just typical mountain barbarians, "highlanders".

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Not all Arabs...I met many nice ones in Palestine. :) About these barbaric practices, I know and have represented a young woman who experienced them personally (in Afghanistan) in her petition for asylum in the USA. When you hear such stories firsthand, it really alters your life. Maybe that's why I'm so sensitive to issues like this.

[svat-vladimir.livejournal.com]

Если Вы хотите, я постараюсь познакомить Вас в интернете с одним мужчиной. Он Ваш ровесник. После окончания Южного Федерального Университета давно живет вместе с женой и дочерью в Азове и Ростове-на-Дону.Он родом из Грозного.Его родители живут там. Думаю, что Вам может быть интересно его мнение о жизни в Чеченской Республике.

[aleksi udovichenko (from livejournal.com)]

просто киньте ему лин этого поста, пусть выскажется.

[1kompozitor.livejournal.com]

В России (и особенно в Чечне) очень сильны традиции. (Для них традиции - это основа всего).
Совершенно иное мировосприятие. Другая система ценностей.
Почему-то многие люди (из США или Европы) что их система ценностей самая верная. Правильная.Точная. Истинная. Почему они в этом так уверенны?
Во многих местах нашей планеты живут люди с иными ценностями. "Со своей правдой". И не нам с Вами их учить как жить.
Демократия в древней Греции сильно отличалась от демократии в США сейчас, но это же тоже демократия.

P.S. Сейчас любой скандал в России пытаются раздуть до уровня "В РОССИИ ЛЮДОЕДЫ ЖИВУТ". Журналисты стали сказочниками. Им бы продолжения про Гарри Поттера писать. Кадыров сам по себе личность богатая на нестандартные поступки. В Чечне сейчас мир - и это главное. У нас есть пословица: "Плохой мир лучше хорошей ссоры".

P.S.S. Надеюсь не обидел Вас. Если что непонятно из моих слов,то я постараюсь объяснить.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

You did not offend me, don't worry. And I don't believe that European or American values and traditions are the best, or the only right way to live. Each person decides this on their own, but are you willing to accept forced marriage and sex slavery, just because it's the tradition in a certain culture?? I will never do it, or find such actions acceptable, regardless of the country or religious grounds upon which they take place.

[aleksi udovichenko (from livejournal.com)]

Chechens live as all lived a thousand years ago. The Soviet Union could make them modern humans, and did. Mane of Chechens became scientists, artists, engineers in Soviet time. This was done due to the communist ideology - ideology of progress. Then communism fell ("thanks" to Gorbachev and his Western friends for that!). In capitalist Russia we had a choice: either to fight with the Chechens because they behave like savages, or to pay them for behaving like savages only in their region. Russia became to fight at first, but lost more than one hundred thousand people - Chechens and Russians. And Russia has decided that it is easier to pay off them money. If Communists ever return to power in Russia, they again made the Chechens civilized people.

Capitalist society cannot solve cultural problems.

8)

[andrey-kaminsky.livejournal.com]

That communist is bad communist that didn't read the Communist Manifesto. Capitalism perfectly solves cultural problems by revolutionary changes in culture and the generation of a new culture. The capitalism can't resolve social contradictions.

[qi-tronic.livejournal.com]

For me the main question is if it's consensual or not.
It should be, otherwise it's crime.

Age does not matter. Romeo and Juliet were 14 and 13 respectively.
I'm for bringing the age of consent in sync with physical abilities and desires.

Polygamy does not matter. People can live in any alliances they want.
The state should not enforce rules of one religion (Christianity) into civil life.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Come on! Romeo and Juliet? :) You really think this is an analogous situation? Certainly the differences between a 14 and 13 year old are not as substantial as between a 17 year old and someone in their late 40's or 50's. If it's consensual, I agree. People should be able to be in any type of relationship they wish - gay, polygamous, etc. I don't care, provided all parties involved are adults.

[pin-gwin.livejournal.com]

It's terrible to read many of these russophobic comments. My vision is that Chechnya and all Kavkaz nation,s area is so different from other areas of Russia, that forced or negotiated marriage generalization definitely wrong here.
I will not elaborate on that, it's ridiculous. At the same time, I would, as usual, point you to one classic comedy movie, one of the finest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping,_Caucasian_Style

and another, more recent thriller.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0309047/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uONM3UvntY4

The second one will give you a good idea if you would like to go to this place. I will not.

On this girl story - I think in many families there free woman marriage choice is not considered essential. Some of suicide female bombers became them because of their tradition, --> being exiled from their families for not following the rules. That's terrible, but it has nothing to do with other parts of Russia.

USAID had some NGO activities there, as everywhere in the world, trying to win "hearts and minds". You may want to study of some of their materials

[linamay.livejournal.com]

It's illegal. He is already married. If she is lucky she could be young rich widow? may be not, cuz, you know, it's illegal. Х*й поймеш этих басурманов. And yes, it is outrageous.

[linamay.livejournal.com]

..but if Russia say "NO", nobody can say what price she will pay for the "NO". It's hard to argue with this guys.

[scrawnypaws.livejournal.com]

Chechen culture? I can help ya with that, sis. But why just Chechen? Let's broaden our horizons a bit and include "mother" Russkieland as well.
"Stone-age mysoginist thugs that poison and destroy everything they touch" would sum it up. A women- (and everything else in this big world) -hating agressive ectoplasm.

Have a nice day.

[buddhistmind.livejournal.com]

lol this)

[zhang-fei.livejournal.com]

It's not illegal to marry a 17 year-old, it's illegal to have a second wife. Technically, you can marry at the age of 16, because according to the law, even though marriageable age is 18, local officials as an exception can grant permisssion to get married at 16 if there are "justifiable reasons" (usually, it's pregnancy). It's illegal to have a second wife in Russia, though, no matter what region you live in, and that's what can be incriminated to this police chief, but he would never be accused. It's a well-known tradition among people in Caucasian region of Russia, when a representative of their people is accused of something horrible, his compatriots will try to make him avoid prosecution, no matter how horrible his crimes are (there's even a famous saying "Rafiq is innocent", which is used when you want to mock this Caucasian tradition).

So, as soon as Russian bloggers and journalists started to point out, how horrible the whole situation was, Chechen officials tried to deny it, and the more journalists pressured, the more it was obvious that this wedding would happen no matter what, even if a groom was on death bed, they would be wed. Basically, Russian bloggers pressured Kadyrow into making this wedding happen)) Maybe if someone from Kremlin told him to back off quietly in the very beggining of the story, before it became a juicy sensation, this wedding would never happen.

The whole thing about protecting your own people in Caucasia is similar to your situation with blacks, when Al Sharpton and left-wing activists will defend any black who commited a crime just because he is black, saying, he is innocent. Chechens and US lefties have a lot of things in common.

[scrawnypaws.livejournal.com]

Hmm, not really. US lefties mainly froth at the mouth (regardless of the cause) over the "right" to spend other people's money.

They don't keep slaves at their brick factories, murder their daughters for "dishonoring conduct". Hey, they don't even cut prisoners' heads off for fun!

This is a diffrent kind of plague, bro. To which napalm - I'm afraid - is the only cure.

[elena-88888.livejournal.com]

I discussed this several days ago with my friend in his blog. In case it's of interest for you (in Russian and try to read with comments if you have a look): http://andrewrostov.ru/eto-vam-ne-geyropa-kakaya-to/
And today I've seen photos of wedding. She seems as after drags injection... It's a pity. But she isn't a single. A lot of such girls becomes a toy at an old man's hands without wedding... We just know nothing about them...

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Again, I watched the videos of this girl and there's an easy distinction in the appearance of someone who is being shy or modest and one who is ready to vomit out of fear or fright. I think her demeanor falls under the latter, no matter how many people try to convince me that her expressions are just "cultural." Btw, here also is a Chechen wedding. See the difference? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F40V4oDx5dA.

[dilpish.livejournal.com]

I was in Chechnya this year) In the near future I'm going to relax with my family to Dagestan. It is safe. Perhaps I can help you to go there. No one there will ban you walk around the city and forced marriage will not)))

Just you influenced by your propaganda)))

Any event can be shown on both sides. That's how we saw it - a very happy young bride marries for love))

Please show me the photo, where you see the misery and despair in her eyes

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

Propaganda? :)) The U.S. news media didn't even cover this event. I only know about it from all the chaos on LJ, and on some Russian news sites. The average American knows absolutely nothing about Chechnya or its connections to Russia, much less about its customs and traditions. Misery and despair in the young girl is obvious to me by watching the video of the ceremony, where she looks like she's about to vomit or faint when she signs the documents. These expressions are different from merely being modest. However, perhaps you see things differently. It's fine. In this blog, I share my impressions and opinions, and you can share yours as well. But this does not mean we will always agree. :))

[anna-sollanna.livejournal.com]

I think the most awful thing of this situation is that haves in Russian can now do whatever they want...

[mitya-laddyggin.livejournal.com]

Oh, please, do not judge different culture from the point of view of your own. No doubt the bride was proud of being married strong and respectable man. And she was not sad as you told (not even supposed). She behaved due to the customs of her ethnicity that is the good girl must be serious and modest during the most important ceremony of her life. Actually Chechen women are strong enough. Look, not all the girls in the world want to shake asses in bikini at the stadiums as cheerleaders and be promiscuous on the back seats of the boys's cars. ;)
By the way I'm Christian and I'm not from Chechnya.

[peacetraveler22.livejournal.com]

I responded in your blog. :)

Да простят мне мой английский…

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

User mitya_laddyggin referenced to your post from Да простят мне мой английский… (http://mitya-laddyggin.livejournal.com/87986.html) saying: [...] Christian and I'm not from Chechnya. К этому: http://peacetraveler22.livejournal.com/134235.html [...]