peacetraveler22: (Default)
[personal profile] peacetraveler22
We all recognize that there are eccentric and deranged people in all parts of the globe, engaged in questionable behavior which we'll never understand or condone. I once thought of visiting Grozny, so perhaps some of you would even place me in one, or both, of these categories. Remember a few years ago, I wrote this post, asking readers whether it's safe for an American woman to travel to Chechnya? Some of my friends in the Russian blogosphere have been there, and even personally met Kadyrov and told me it was safe. All of them - MEN. You can call me a naive or misinformed American, but I can't understand yesterday's events.

I read the scandalous news that Kadyrov granted special permission for an old Police Chief to marry a 17 year old bride! I will not place a photo of the sad, distraught young woman in my blog to further sensationalize her image. On her wedding day, her eyes completely devoid of joy, as if going to a funeral or gas chamber. You've already seen her expressions, her white dress, and the bejeweled head covering, all draped around the delicate frame of a young woman who likely had no say in the events of that day, or in picking her groom. What a sad existence, I'm sorry I can't imagine it, or respect any region where such actions are considered acceptable, and personally authorized by the leader!! I read a lot of stories and comments about this topic today, and I'm particularly disgusted by the post written by Ilya Varlamov, LJ's top Russian blogger, where he can't understand all the fuss or controversy over the wedding.  How can a modern, intelligent man like him not question this event, particularly when he has a young daughter of his own?

Here in the U.S., we have various religious sects engaged in polygamy, many marrying very young brides. The distinction is that our leaders don't advocate or approve of such behavior, nor does most of American society. On some other news sites, I read comments by a few Chechen females stating that the bride's facial expression was normal, that Muslim women don't show overt expression, even during a wedding. According to them, such action would be considered immodest in strict Muslim families.

What do you think of this scandal? Please help me understand "real" Chechen culture and mentality better, not what well-known bloggers show on their hand held tours, organized by Chechen officials. Yes, I know about the Chechen wars and that it's a Muslim region in the North Caucasus, yet it's still part of Russia. I'm especially interested to hear from any female readers I might have living in this area. Help me restore my faith in this region..
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Date: 2015-05-17 03:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] juan-gandhi.livejournal.com
This freedom of marriage is selective. The guys gets his permission from his boss. Nobody asks the bride, of course, but this happens everywhere. Except that in this case there's no way any law enforcement will enforce any law there, except sharia law or special exceptions for Kadyrov and his buddies.

I would not ascribe all this to the peculiarities of Chechen culture. Maybe it is there, maybe not. This case is not about Chechen culture. In Ukraine, for instance, a woman can marry at 16, with court permission.

Date: 2015-05-17 04:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
Even in the USA, teenagers can marry as young as 16 with permission from their parents. However, in this case, it's quite apparent that this is a forced marriage, nothing evolving out of romance or pure love. For this reason, it's disgusting and a form of sexual slavery.

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Date: 2015-05-17 03:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rankin-almst500.livejournal.com
))... I've tried to tell you - do not be a witless american... and don't ask witless russian women about her love for her counrty...)

it's a governmental rape of a school girl .... - you will never understand that...

that's how I lived in Russia for 31 years.... until I've left.... I don't know how else to explain it to you... well, I know, because I am 54 years old... but you will not listen...((

Date: 2015-05-17 04:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
I think there are a lot of "witless Russians" also, because they can't understand this situation either, based on comments in many blogs. The best post and reasoning about this is here http://politichanka.livejournal.com/346551.html. I don't always agree with her political point of views, but on this subject I subscribe to every word she wrote in that post. Can you imagine Obama granting special permission for some Senator to marry a girl who just turned 17? It would never happen in this country. Thank God women have achieved a higher level of respect and value in our society.

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Date: 2015-05-17 04:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] genka8.livejournal.com
Without addressing you question, I'd like to mention that Varlamov's "not understanding" is a flamebait in a bid to get more comments. As a top blogger you should know this trick :)

Date: 2015-05-17 04:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
I'm not a "top blogger", and never will be! To reach the top now on LJ, you must be involved in yellow journalism, scandals, and politics. I will not sink that low for the sake of fame. :))

Date: 2015-05-17 04:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] leo-sosnine.livejournal.com
No surprise here. Varlamov is paid by Kremlin.

Date: 2015-05-17 04:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
I doubt the Kremlin agrees with Kadyrov's decision to grant permission for this marriage. Based on some of Varlamov's other posts about women and their roles in relationships/society, I question whether he views females as anything other than sexual objects, or maids to cook dinner each night, pop out babies and clean the house...

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Date: 2015-05-17 04:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stan podolski (from livejournal.com)
Друзьям - все, врагам - закон, хехе

Date: 2015-05-17 04:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
This story made me very sad today. :( Do you have a teenage daughter? Wish to hand her off to a grandpa for sexual satisfaction?

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Date: 2015-05-17 04:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tyrrel-hanna.livejournal.com
Spousal rape is not a crime in Russia. This is all you have to know about this black hole.

Date: 2015-05-17 04:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
Seriously? :( I had no idea. This is shameful.

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From: [identity profile] tyrrel-hanna.livejournal.com - Date: 2015-05-17 07:45 am (UTC) - Expand

Just open penal code :)

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Re: Just open penal code :)

From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com - Date: 2015-05-18 02:27 pm (UTC) - Expand

There are different situations.

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Date: 2015-05-17 04:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mila-xm.livejournal.com
Varlamov understands everything. But why he chose to write about it from position of innocent baby, who knows nothing about the world, it is another question. As for faith into this religion, it is enough to see photos of women, disfigured by acid and fire, without noses, read about 6 y.o. girls who die in their 1st wedding nights from blood loss, while mullahs approve it or even take part in these crimes, what can be said? Only thanks, that we were not born in certain regions of the planet.

Date: 2015-05-17 04:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
Exactly, why does he take this odd position? He's already a wealthy person. Maybe he's such a fame and money whore that he's willing to spit on female rights for the sake of popularity and wealth? If so, this is sick behavior. And, yes, I've said it many times in this blog - I'm very grateful that I wasn't born in a country where women are treated like dirt, with no identity or value in society other than to be a slave and baby factory for a man. I once represented a young female like this, who escaped horrid conditions in Afghanistan, and helped her gain citizenship in the USA through asylum.

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Date: 2015-05-17 04:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fedli.livejournal.com
Каждому свое...Вы едите собачий язык,мы -щи,чечены-шашлык...И живём мы далеко друг от друга...

Date: 2015-05-17 04:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
Yes, "to each his own", but forced marriage should not be considered acceptable in any society. It's a form of sex slavery, esp. when children are involved. If you have a daughter, I doubt you would be pleased to hand her off to an old man to live in subservience for eternity.

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)))

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Re: )))

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From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com - Date: 2015-05-17 03:05 pm (UTC) - Expand

But what is forced?

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Re: But what is forced?

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Date: 2015-05-17 04:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-oles.livejournal.com
She was born in hell anyway, what choice she has in her life in that chechnya? Only to merry, copulate, spawn some other zergs to continue the hell cycle and die (if she's lucky - peacefully). Education? Decent work? That's laughable.

Date: 2015-05-17 04:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
I didn't think conditions are so bad for Chechen women. So, once again, I'm probably just naive about the reality of the situation there.

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Date: 2015-05-17 05:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anna tairova (from livejournal.com)
It made me sad too. Thanks God I live in St Petersburg nor Grozny.
As I reckon parents of this girl attends to media in need to prevent this slavery "marriage". But they was forced to say yes lately. And this groom is no Senator its like head of Mafia. Policemans in Chechnya is a real army-like force helping Kadyrov to grow his power. Our lawsmen is closing their eyes to many of the Kadyrov's crimes and Shariat things.
Russia is the very shovinist country. But in Chechnya we see total Muslim country like Iran. Its a cloak that can blow up, so Putin tries to balance moral and law to keep Kadyrov calm.
Chechens does a terror in Boston, kills Nemtsov, kidnap a grown-up chechen women from Armenia (to prevent her marriage with the Armenian) and so on...
To understand the Chechnya I recommmend you to read Latynina blog on "Эхо Москвы". And there is a women who travelled to Chechnya several times and wrote several articles about it and did the interview with the Kadyrov. Its Ksenia Sobchak. I cannot put there links from my smartphone but you can google it. Or use Yandex its better in Russian language search.
Edited Date: 2015-05-17 05:15 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-05-17 04:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
I saw the TV interview with the young woman as well. There, she appeared so awkward, as though the answers were forced or stage, to provide the appearance that she's in love with the man and consents to the marriage. Thanks for the reference to the other articles. I'll try to find them and read.

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Date: 2015-05-17 05:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kolldun.livejournal.com
Take Chechnya as a reservation (like for native Americans in the usa)

They have their laws and traditions. They are supported everywhere by the government for being a minority.

And they practice their traditions however disgusting they are. And sometimes not only in their reservation but everywhere. Tsarnaev took their national pasion for blowing bombs even to Boston.

Date: 2015-05-17 06:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
Yep, and now Tsarnaev officially sits on death row until his appeals in U.S. courts are exhausted. Hopefully, they'll find a way to expedite the appeals process so he can be sent to the table for execution sooner, rather than later. I have no desire to have my tax dollars support a worthless, non-remorseful human being like that for decades in jail. In a case like this, I fully support the death penalty.

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Date: 2015-05-17 05:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alex winter (from livejournal.com)
Тут короче возможно два варианта.
Первый: те правозащитники, к которым обращалась семья девушки, врут, чтоб очернить Кадырова.
Второй: Всё правда, девушка против, а Кадыров просто не может потерпеть, чтоб верно служащих ему людей отвергали женщины, то есть люди второго сорта по нормам исламской морали. Путин и его приближённые не хотят лишней напряжённости в Чечне, поэтому смотрят на творящееся там средневековье сквозь пальцы. Никто ничего не может с этим поделать, потому что власти у народа нет и обращаться куда-то для расследования этого дела или с жалобами бесполезно.

Date: 2015-05-17 04:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
"Putin doesn't want excess intensity in Chechnya, and therefore makes light of the Middle Ages which is created there..it's the only plausible explanation as to why he's silent on the situation and public outcry.

Date: 2015-05-17 05:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alex winter (from livejournal.com)
Не удивлюсь, если через некоторое время девушку заставят выступить для журналистов с заявлениями, что она очень-очень любит своего мужа и просит не вмешиваться в их личную жизнь.

Date: 2015-05-17 05:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fedli.livejournal.com
А куда деваться,если поднялся такой вой среди "свободно -демократических педерастов".

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Date: 2015-05-17 05:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dorli87.livejournal.com
It is absolutely awful. Poor girl. It looks like an ancient sacrifice.

Date: 2015-05-17 04:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
That's right..sacrifice. It's the proper word.

Date: 2015-05-17 05:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] justadreamer.livejournal.com
Старик из богатого и сильного клана захотел молоденькую. Невеста из нищего клана, который за счёт этого брака поднимется вверх по иерархической лестнице. Мнение девушки, понятно, никто не спрашивал. Мусульмане...

Общественность попыталась вмешаться, но пока суть да дело, девушке там родственники, похоже, всё популярно объяснили и она стала со всем согласная и безумно влюблённая в старика.

Ну а в стране, сейчас, с вашими санкциями проблем выше крыши, чтобы ещё на Кавказе разборки устраивать. Поэтому всё и спустили на тормозах.

Date: 2015-05-17 07:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-nimaida.livejournal.com
Вы правы.

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Date: 2015-05-17 05:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dkfl.livejournal.com
don't blame Varlamov, I doubt he could use other words, he has no defense against hot heads from C.

Date: 2015-05-17 04:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
I did not blame him, I simply wrote that I can't understand his mentality in this situation. I'm certain he would not hand off his daughter, at the age of 17, to an old man for marriage. Any self-respecting father would want much more for their daughter...life experience, the chance to love and discover oneself as a person, before being tied to someone three times her age for life. I guess the problem here is that such opportunities don't really exist for a Chechen villager, so the family sees these forced marriages to higher-ups as the only chance for financial stability. So, to me, it is simply a slave or barter system, and no woman deserves it, based on religious beliefs or any other grounds.

Date: 2015-05-17 06:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] maadmike.livejournal.com
They live as they did it for hundreds years. And it is not strange that you are so wonder about their style of life when you are writing about you like a perspective of not having the children at all and about your masturbating on your teachers. I saw the Chechen's students and their criminals in my youth in Student's Hotel, they are very respectful for their parents and the will of their parents is a law for them.
I can say that the Chechens are morals stronger than the Europeans have, with all the nowadays laws of gay marriage legalization, the termination of parental rights, with all the immigration problems, when people in Europe don't know for whom their government are working now. So I don't see much problem in this particular marriage, I see the real problem in the increasing of number of early abortions in Russia.

Date: 2015-05-17 06:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
Hello, nice to see you here again. :) Read my blog often? If so, you'll know that my parents and family are the most important thing in life to me. I also respect my mother and father, but "the will of my parents" doesn't control me. I'm an individual person, with my own thoughts, ambitions and desires in life. Not a piece of property to be sold or handed off to someone else for sex or some sort of financial gain. Gays have nothing to do with this scenario, nor does the fact that I don't have children. I'm looking at this situation only from a human perspective, and as a woman. What if a Chechen dad told his young son to strap on a bomb and carry it to Moscow? Would you also say this is okay because it's "the will of the parent?" I highly doubt it. And what do you have against female masturbation? :) It's very healthy and natural.

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Date: 2015-05-17 06:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sergechel.livejournal.com
"Some of my friends in the Russian blogosphere have been there, and even personally met Kadyrov and told me it was safe." - where are some bloggers who's getting paid for "blogotours", riding around the country, meeting "leaders" and writing about the beautiful and peaceful life in putin's Russia. Some of them are your friends.

Date: 2015-05-17 06:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
Yes, Alexander (macos) is one of them. He sat at a round table with Kadyrov and had his photo taken with him during an official tour.

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Date: 2015-05-17 07:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alex-ishm.livejournal.com
Hollywood will shoot movie and somebody get Oscar.

Date: 2015-05-17 08:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notfop.livejournal.com
Doc films can get the Oscar?

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Date: 2015-05-17 07:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] koluchkka.livejournal.com
I think that Chechen traditions are not the most important thing in this case. If he would like to marry a goal he could - while Chechnya in Russia has special rights. (Her leaders, of course). "Do what you want, but stay in Russia".
Sorry for my bad english ))

Date: 2015-05-17 04:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
Your English is okay, I understood! :)

Date: 2015-05-17 07:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-nimaida.livejournal.com
Chechen culture has no relation to this wedding.

This wedding is a common phenomenon in the Muslim world. Muslims are allowed to take 4 wives. But the beautiful, young girl under Sharia law it is impossible to marry an old man. Kadyrov even violates Sharia law.

The problem is that this outrage support the Kremlin ....
  This is very bad.

Date: 2015-05-17 04:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
"The problem is that this outrage support the Kremlin ...." yep, that's correct. And Russia will never be considered a "modern", non-corrupt or progressive country when its leader remains silent in such situations. Chechnya is not fully under Sharia law, so it's irrelevant if we are looking at the situation only from a legal perspective.

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Date: 2015-05-17 07:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] krasnogorr.livejournal.com
Привет! =)

Уже поговаривают, что эта свадьба затмила свадьбы британских монарших особ.

Уж тот факт, что Кадыров не танцевал лезгинку на свадьбе Кейт и Гарри, совершенно точно делает их праздник скучным и никому не интересным.

Я, правда, не думал, что судороги вокруг этого выкатились за пределы русского сегмента интернета.

Date: 2015-05-17 04:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
This event wasn't really covered in the U.S., but I follow Russian media and news sites, that's how I know about it. I saw only a couple short articles on U.S. newspaper sites. like here http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/chechnya-leader-police-chief-46-wed-girl-17-article-1.2224751. Some sources say the man was 46, others say he was in his late 50's. Anyway, most Americans have no idea who Kadyrov is, much less be aware of his politics or policies in this region.

Date: 2015-05-17 07:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theodorexxx.livejournal.com
By Chechen traditions, during the wedding feast and party the bride sits in a corner and speaks only if she's spoken to. Nuff said. it's barely possible to understand some traditions.
Edited Date: 2015-05-17 08:00 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-05-17 04:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
"Speaks only if she's spoken to..." great existence for a woman! I'm sure this young girl will have a rich, rewarding life. NOT. :(

Date: 2015-05-17 07:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fareastener.livejournal.com
Shannon, there is some hidden facts in this case. However, everything is within the legal field in terms of any legislation.

Date: 2015-05-17 04:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
Hey! Nice to hear from you again. :)

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Date: 2015-05-17 08:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] maryasha-b.livejournal.com
After that scandal I watched many videos on youtube about other Chechen weddings and also when this your Chechen girl was interviewed before the wedding. And now I am confused what actually happened there. I am not totally convinced anymore it was a forced marriage and that behavior of the young bride on the wedding day cannot be merely explained by Chechen tradition: bride is not supposed to express happiness, but be solemn and quite, she even is not supposed to sit down or participate in celebration or start conversation with her husband's relatives and friends (and her relatives are not taking part in celebration)... Well, it is very difficult to comprehend such tradition for Western mentality, but I am trying... And surely trying not to charge without knowing for sure what happened.
Edited Date: 2015-05-17 09:08 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-05-17 04:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peacetraveler22.livejournal.com
Yes, it's very difficult to understand for Western mentality, and others. However, I think most human beings don't condone forced marriages or sex slavery, regardless of whether they're Western or not. I find it very difficult to believe that a young woman who just turned 17 when be madly in love with a man three times her age...but I suppose anything is possible.

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